The Spy Who Raised Me Podcast
The Spy Who Raised Me Podcast
Saudi Arabia, training Saudi soldiers to set up their own intelligence capability
In this conversation between Jane Craigie and her father, Iain Craigie, the discussion centres on Iain’s posting to Jeddah in Saudi Arabia between 1979 and 1980. Iain was based there as one of five GCHQ operatives. Their role was to train Saudi Arabia’s national guard - mainly Bedouin - on how to set up the country’s own intelligence systems.
The posting was challenging, because most of the tutees were near illiterate, and the subject matter was highly technical. The time there was volatile and part of their work was to try and intercept transmissions and movements across the 1,100 mile border with Yemen.
This longer episode sets the context of the region back to WWI and Lawrence of Arabia, Kemal Ataturk, Gallipoli and the ANZACs. It also touches on the countries and the origins of the Sunni/Shia divisions, as well as the border areas and power in the Middle East.
Iain talks of his time living in the country, the Saudi culture and his adventures into the desert with the immensely kind Bedouin and their families of nomadic camel herders.
Welcome to the spy who raised me podcast conversations between a daughter and her father. Yes, you've guessed it, he was a spy. My name is Jane Craigie and I'm here with my dad Craigie and we are talking about that time when he was a Saudi Arabia and the Middle East. He was actually based in Jeddah to in 1979 1980. We're going to start with a little bit of context to the region so much that we're hearing about conflict in the Middle East, stems back, as do many of these conflicts many, many, many decades. And at the heart of it back at the beginning, 20th century was the Ottoman and Arab conflict. All over land steeped in this history is a man of myth and legend, legend and history. Lawrence of Arabia. That seems like a fitting place to start now you learnt a lot about the desert. And you were there. Tell me a little bit about Lawrence of Arabia and why the man has context to what we're talking about now.
Unknown:Yes, T. Lawrence was an unusual person. He's he, he was very fond of wild places, and Arabs in particular. And he decided that he would go to Arabia and mix with help the local Arab tribes and doing whatever they will do it and they had a conflict with the Turkish, the Turkish army chair which he over a period of two or three years he joined in as as, as an active competent, finished up as being one of the commanders of the of the army. That, that fought the attack the Turkish troops. And that fed into the First World War where
Unknown:the Allies had
Unknown:a plan to secure access to the Bosphorus and through into the Black Sea. So that there would be a connection with Russia who were one of our early allies in the First World War I this was this was seminal happening and that terrible conflict in gallipolis cause gamma lactogenic, who was who was the leader of the of the Turkish army, knew what was happening. And he very quickly set up a pincer motion that took him down into deliberately, where the high ground overlooking the boss restraints were ideal for repulsing and invasion came from, from chips coming, coming into that area. But he, he very quickly set up trenches on the high ground overlooking the Strait. And over a period of weeks, he got his troops to dig trenches, secure that all the high ground, and then he just settled there and waited for something to happen. Who should did? HMS Clyde I think was first chip tried to take take the zipline peninsula. But little did they know that the talks were firmly ensconced in the trenches overlooking the street. When they tried to land on the glibly beaches, they were decimated by by rifle fire that that killed so many people that was unbelievable. And their organisation allies organisation of the assassin kirschen was not well handled, it wasn't properly planned. And one of the one of the commanders who was who was deployed to to Subic Bay which is quite close to the trenches, instead of securing the land so that they could help propulse the ducks and the trenches, he decided that it would be much better to set up control centre so that he could, he could sit there and organise his troops. Unfortunately, again, we'll have to jerk Other ideas and he managed over a short period of time after the invasion to move even more troops into the global area. So, it became a tragic episode in that particular conquest and, and it finished up with with, with thousands and thousands of troops, Australian, New Zealand forces were there, very courageous people who lost so so many people and the other allies. So that was something that goes down in history as being poor planning and vision by by the politicians especially, especially Churchill,
Unknown:and against a leader in Ataturk, who was a famous tactician and strategist.
Unknown:Yes, gamma tech was was As an incredible person he was he was single minded, he was different. He, he, he, he had this idea that that Turkey as it became, should be a secular state and should not follow Islamic strict Islamic rules and, and so on,
Unknown:which is very visionary for that very
Unknown:question. And Todd now that the that modern Turkey has has gone away from that with Abdullah and they are now looking at at a much stricter Islamic
Unknown:situation.
Unknown:So, it's so relevant to today isn't that's going on in that region. And one of the things we will cover in in a future podcast and anybody who listened to the first podcast would have heard me say just what an adventure My dad is, and and where he took us on holiday. In one of our holiday destination we'll cover in another podcast was deliberately and we used to go there and you could still find old guns and hand grenades and all sorts of things on on the beaches. As children, we dig in the sand on these things. But that's not for now we'll, we'll come back to that in a future podcast. And that at the end of the First World War, there, there was a huge task of splitting the various land areas between the allies and the French, who were very interested in taking control, understandably, in that part of the Middle East. And and that was really you described earlier, that that was really the beginning of Sunni Shia fracture. And so just to give you a little bit of context, the Saudis were Sunni. And the Iraqis, also Sunni, Iran shear. The Syrians were Hashemite and the Yemenis, the Hootie Bashir That's the beginnings of a lot of the conflict that we're seeing today. And just to overlay that, so when when the landmasses were being split, at the end of the First World War, in 1920, Syria was taken over as a as a French colony. And out of that they carved greater Lebanon. cover that in another podcast, a recent visit to the Lebanon but that you see the French presence deal very much in Lebanon today. And the Allies were granted control of the Ottoman Empire, the old Ottoman Empire territories of trans Jordan, which is now Jordan, Palestine, and and also Iraq. So if we fast forward to 1979, and you landed in Saudi Arabia at a at a pretty bad time, because they were Celebrating. They're practising Ramadan in Saudi Arabia. So you turned up there with four other colleagues. So there was an officer in charge, a man called Sandy Gordon, who was from Keith, there was an Arab linguists called john Morton, who was a very intellectual man. And there were three of you that were there as instructors, yourself, Bob Davidson from Cooper and Jordan herzman. From Chapman, and the five of you were there, at the behest of the British government to train the National Guard, who were mostly Bedouin, and many, virtually illiterate Bedouin and to teach them to set up their own intelligence, which you'll go on to describe them and given their lack of education background. And so tell me a little bit about what you did and what you faced when you first arrived there. Back in 1979.
Unknown:Yes, it was an interest Michelle, we were given because I don't think anyone had ever tried to teach Bedouin Arabs how to indulge in intercepts and surveillance. But we could see the need for it because because Saudi Arabia felt threatened on a number of sides by the Yemenis by the Iranians, and they had to with all the resources that they had the wealth that they had through through oil, mainly, they had to try and have a secure area that they could indulge in what they do best and that is finding and and selling oil to the rest of the world, but the Bedouin sold so we had we The first day we arrived there in Jeddah 1979. We were introduced to them. They were a motley lot, they all wore soaps not not uniform
Unknown:to describe what a
Unknown:soap is. soap is a is a voluminous white garment that men wear and Arab countries. very loose fitting, very cool to wear with pockets, large pockets either side. And we'll refer to that a little bit later. And so there they were sitting looking at us, I think there were 12 I can't remember exactly how many. And we had to through an interpreter we had to, we had to introduce ourselves and give them some idea of what mission was which wasn't easy with people who have been brought up probably in the desert but for nomadic People looking after camels. And we were talking about all sorts of things like, like, satellites, like intercepting, communications and so on. But anyway, they hang in there. And I guess over a period of time, we did see some, some indication that they were absorbing what we were teaching. But as people they were, they were extremely kind, they were very hospitable. They used to invite the four or five of us who were instructing there to join them in the desert at weekends and, and meet their their relatives who were camped out. And that in itself is a key was a tremendous privilege to be able to, to join a culture so different from our own background and we From a point of view of getting close to two people that we were teaching it, it, it It was great. But the fact that they had Ramadan and periods like that where they had to switch off your drive in the morning after a night of fasting and they would they would curl up underneath the desks and and go to sleep and then sit up for a while and then fall asleep again. So it was quite quite chaotic the whole thing and we discovered in Jeddah was Jeddah is very it's a soulless place. It's all concrete buildings, and not many people in the streets except for Yemenis who were the poor people that swept up and collected rubbish and so there were always two or three Yemenis scuttling away. outside but but very few Saudis because they were in cars with smoke glass windows and they were swishing around the city of Jeddah. But getting back to the students, we had one occasion in 1979. One morning we were doing where we were trying to do. Yeah, that is teach them something. I think by that time we were, we were covering satellites just to give them some concept of what what manner of communication might might have to be looked at in the future. But all of a sudden, one of the one of the group came up and said, Oh, excuse me, we have to go. We have to go. No explanation. It just all worked out. disappeared. And we thought What is happening? there? We spoke to the interpreter and said, can you tell us what is happening? I mean, are they coming back? Is this the end of the story or what? And over a period of two or three days, news began to percolate through the media that the mosque, the mosquito, and Mecca had been taken over by militants. At that time. There were a lot of militants protesting against the Saudi government because of the policies of westernisation and students, john ditas, as it were called a word was off to help in evicting the the militant you had taken over the mosque. So they, we we got new news and there was very little news.
Unknown:As is quite common in Saudi Arabia for what was happening and and what the militants were doing and what Saudi forces were doing, but after about five days, all the students arrived back in the classroom and they had pockets bulging with cash, absolutely spilling out.
Unknown:So where did they go that cash,
Unknown:they got that cash from the from the government, through their their army contact and so on. And it was, like often happened in Saudi Arabia. People were, were given large amounts of money to keep their mouth shut, to to comply with the with very strict Saudi Saudi laws that they had a very secretive and and and not open to the to The outside world. So they there they were pocket stuffed full of nodes. And they sat there. And when we when we tried to find out what what the money was all about. It looked very such shamefaced, but we didn't really discover it until afterwards when the interpreter said Oh, yes, that's common common place when when carrying out missions like that. But in any event, the the mosque, eventually with the help of French and Pakistani commanders reclaim the MOS guy under a lot of deaths among the militant, I think I think 67 deaths were were posted up as having been the number of casualties but we suspected that it was far more than that.
Unknown:And you used as you said earlier, and you spent a lot of time with the bed when you got to know them more. You met their relative camel herders, and you spent time out with them in the desert, travelling with them in the desert, living with them in their shakes, which were their tents. And you were saying that they were made out of goat hair. And you were also telling me goats being an important part of their culture, but also their food. And can you describe what a typical weekend was like out with find hospitable embracing people in the desert?
Unknown:Yeah, it was it was a great experience because
Unknown:we were in Jeddah, which is which is on the Red Sea coast. And the deserts that that their relatives worked in as nomads were about 100 hundred and 50 kilometres away so they used to roll up on a Friday with this huge Chevrolet and Mary Carr and Mohammed who was the virtual leader of the group of soldiers, we were teaching, he would drive and he always stuck a tape and is in the cassette recorder and it was more often than not a pop songs that we got. And so we would then we would go and 40 degrees up over time and typhon itself was a very interesting place because at that time 1979 there were still performing public beheadings and cutting off hands and so on curry as happen as we passed through TAFE Mohammed said, Oh, these people are going to the, to the beheading to the and, and the apparently Had a square, an open area where they performed these and thieves had their hands scraped off one 100 ghetto. And for more serious indiscretions, they were beheaded. So that was sort of that was, was quite an event, I guess, in that society at that time to go and look to see who's having a head chopped off and it was, it was incredible. It was an incredible thing to be happening in a place where people were so, so hospitable and and so kind. Anyway, we were set off into the desert and drive and drive and drive until until we find the nomads and there might be 20 or 30 or 40 camels there. And as Jane said, The Black, the black shake, which is which is fast, fascinating. A tent structure big, very heavy because the goats here that was used to do Eve it was was fantastic and you would sit down there even when it was raining and you would feel that nothing coming through is just incredible. But the camel herders would come up and and they would milk a camel, but no camel and offer all the guests a drink of fresh camel milk and it was it was superb. So the main days for these nomads would have been dates and camel milk and the occasional occasional hair or something but and goat and goat. Yeah, and the goat goat was another another story because it was it was such an interesting the first time we were in such an interesting weekend. Because when we got there and it said hello to the the camel herders and had a drink of camel milk we then dug a hole in the sand and put an empty an empty oil God
Unknown:an oil drum into the hole and and set a fire in the base of this drum and over a period of two or three hours the fed the fire at the fire until there was a nice even layer of fight ash and the bottom of the dam and then they put some green green twigs on top and then put the go to Chad butchered and dismembered on top of the green twigs and put the lid on and covered it with with with goddang and sad and then he left it For a number of hours, and eventually later in the day they opened this up and it was absolutely gorgeous. So these holies and the smell of the the goat was fantastic and and the tradition was that they cut a little bit of cheek from the goat and presented that to the to the guests. So you had to chew this this cycler here a piece a piece of gauze and swap it and then you run up the clan I guess. But no very interesting. Very interesting experience. And one that brought everyone I think all our group closer to to our brief where am I then it's so totally different to our own background that that gave us some insight into the culture and The politics and the geopolitics and so on. Very, very interesting.
Unknown:Can you learn some Arabic as well while you were there?
Unknown:We went to the to the American School fair, a fair they chose to Arabic and did did some some lessons it wasn't wholly successful because because you know, because of a complex language and we found the pronunciation and so on the fact that we weren't actively using Arabic that much in the workplace teaching yet. We didn't really
Unknown:do as well as we should have done but but so interesting.
Unknown:Can you remember any Can you tell us a little bit about
Unknown:well, we used to pick up with the they had they had terms, they had great words that they used for greeting and and you would use You would arrive in a cave Allah quiches. How are you give alekan everyone would shake hands with each other going around saying GIF, GIF, GIF, GIF, GIF Alec, you know you could this might take two or three minutes by the time everyone had had got round, you know the neighbours and and what was the other words that used to use her arm was was often used because her arm is forbidden. So you can imagine in a society such as patches existed in Saudi Arabia, a lot of things. And so if you knew if you did something or you said something, immediately, you'd get some you know, in a soft voice No, you can't do that. Can't say that. But But again, coming back after, after all the farewells, and and that kind away from, you know, the weekend, we would we would all filter back towards cedella member one instance where they had a friend who lived just outside that dive. But they said we'll go and see to this friend of ours, they'll be turned up and they had obviously, you had for warning that we were coming to, to visit them that we came, we came into this house and warmly greeted. And I said to Mohammed who has who was more or less a leader of a group, a sort of toilet. He said yes. And he pointed to the toilet. So I went in to the toilet. I was surprised to see that it said modern fittings, the plumbing was all there. There was there was Both sit on there was a system of of where the water should have been. And it was all there. So I had to pee and went to flush the toilet, and the whole damn thing collapsed.
Unknown:It was no water was all there for sure.
Unknown:And the system landed in my feet and of course, my Arab friends were only a few feet away sitting in the room next. I felt exceeding them by when I walked when I walked back, Mohammed looked at me and smiled as much to say, Well, you know,
Unknown:this is the gig, the gig.
Unknown:And and one of the people that you met, and we'll touch on this in a minute, but linked to why you were there. But one of the people that you met was the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia. And you told me a story about the
Unknown:vehicle that he used. Yeah, a twist They had they had very unusual pursuits because of the desert because of the nature of the country. They lived in mostly sand and volcanic rocks. And he he loved hunting. And he he hunted with Hawk just traditional in Saudi and Saudi Arabia throughout the Middle East. And in this occasion, he he turned up and we went to observe, see what how it was done. And he says on an adapted seat in the middle of the, of the Range Rover, it was a big opulent looking Range Rover. And someone pressed the button and he was elevated. Some feet above the query would normally set and and the Range Rover and from that vantage point, you could look at our own spot. And he hears it may have may have blown the cover. And then he would set the hook to kill him. He loved that he could see that there was this passion.
Unknown:And and that takes me on to the the strategic and relational importance of Saudi Arabia to the British government. It was obviously to do with power to do with the British having some control stroke strong relationship with the Saudi leadership and, and and against, you know, a volatile place, volatile area of the world. And how do you think the relationship came about between the British government and the Saudis for you to be there, training them intelligence techniques?
Unknown:Well, traditionally, I mean, like, like is now the case Oil. And energy was a very big issue with with all countries for those countries who didn't have their own supply of oil, of course, it was an incredibly strategic thing to be able to buy a supply of oil. And that obviously gave people who had the oil wells, great wealth and also great power. And in Britain's relationship with Saudi Arabia, there was always a balance between the need for us to to get oil for the various things that required the use of oil and our support them because side is a very good business people and and they wouldn't give things away. So the equation was we thought and I'm sure it's true, that supplying arms for example, to save Arabia. It was one way of of redressing the balance, even though we did pay a lot for the oil. But that, unfortunately, Middle East being such a complex area, so many political and economic factors and geographical that,
Unknown:that when the Saudis started
Unknown:attacking the Houthis in Yemen, and Yemen has always been a sensitive area for Saudi Arabia, because of course, they're Sunni, and the majority of Muslims and Yemen Shia, and they've always felt threatened by them, but the equation now of Britain and other suppliers of arms like America and Europe to Saudi Arabia, who are who attacked the Houthis. And they've been so so many deaths and in Yemen. As a result of that, that is a very, very contentious point and modern politics and one It hasn't been resolved and doesn't look as if it will be resolved.
Unknown:Now, then you were saying when we were doing some, we're having a conversation before we started recording that part of your purpose there. So yes, you were there to train the National Guard intelligence techniques. And that part of the wider goal was to look at ways to secure the border between Saudi Arabia and Yemen. What exactly was that plan?
Unknown:Well, the plan was that the Saudi Arabian government which we're trying to establish some sort of security system that would make them Feel that they were safe from any incursions from from the Yemenis. And also the Iranians, but but mainly the Yemenis at this point in time and cross the border between Saudi Arabia and the Yemen extends for 1100 miles. It's a huge it's a huge border. It's in a desert area. So there aren't apart from the fact that it's a desert. It there are no natural barriers, like Himalayas or great mountains or deep rivers. So, so in that sense, the Saudis are quite vulnerable from incursions across that border. So one of our missions was to was to try to give them the means by which they could they could survey the The border and make sure that if there were incursions they would be they would be spotted by the Saudis. And they could they could do whatever they had to do to safeguard their security. But one of the ideas that came up with was, was birdieing system that allowed allowed any movement of vehicles or troops across the border to be identified by vibrations and ground. And when we looked at it, we thought we were not experts, but we thought well, 1100 miles of cable buried in the ground doesn't sound a feasible way of so and so the other thing we tried which which was not very successful, was Testing, a VHF surveillance cabin that was made specifically for for the purpose of monitoring and any incursion that has happened where VHF radios were being in research for many research for many long hours in the heat of the desert, my god it was hot and listening for it for signals that may or may not have been there, but that was that was very expensive
Unknown:system that didn't work.
Unknown:And you were, you were also saying I mean, the the net result of the year there was not hugely successful because of the uneducated nature of the bedwin. And this the trying to find some mechanism to be able to monitor that border for movements of people vehicles, and but one of the other interests things even me earlier is that you you had some competitors for the favours of the Saudis, which were the Chinese and they were not too happy about the Brits being there. expand a little bit on that
Unknown:for us. Yeah, that was that was quite amusing because when we got there, like I say, Jeddah was a very boring place It was all concrete houses and no culture. First blocks, and not many people around so we used to have coffee break in the morning would sit in the balcony and look out at the van and interesting landscape except that the offices opposite us on the other side of the road, have seemed very interested in what we were doing. And they would sit on the balcony and and look across and then one or two or three people will come out and chat for back end again. And it wasn't until Some months later that we realised that the Saudis had also brought in a group of Chinese technicians, experts, we guessed we assumed and surveillance methods and it sort of gave us kind of bit of background on what the Saudis are trying to do. And they're adept at that. I mean, they play off one country against another, they've been doing it very scarce go for a long time, just why the balance of power, the balance of diplomacy that they have in America, Britain, and other countries supply them with various things. Is, is has has endured for such a long period of time without any repercussions so far.
Unknown:In fast forward, here we are in 2020, and much of what you've described It is still a very, very live if not more volatile, a debate. And I know that we'll pick up on more of that in the upcoming podcasts for
Unknown:sure. And the interesting thing about the Saudi social scene is we picked that up in the 1979 is that there's a huge amount of discontent among among Saudi people, because on the one hand, they were subjected to very, a very strict form of Islam, a which forbade them from from drinking, which forbade them from various things, being in nightclubs and so on. But during the time in 1979, we saw photographs, the some of the soldiers that we're teaching had showing showing the prints Even the king at one stage, sitting in a nightclub in France with a with a bottle of wine in front of them. And of course this this dichotomy of behaviour that is, is apparent in countries like that can only can only lead to tension and Ill feeling and some some stage unrest and the countries that have that.
Unknown:Yeah, and we're seeing some signs of change in Saudi Arabia, women can now dry it's very, it's a it's always been a very oppressive regime. And one has caused its citizens a lot of
Unknown:heartache. So in that neither erecting and the Red Sea coast, not far from Jeddah, you started building complex for tourists. Because Red Sea is an incredible city. For snorkelling and diving into a and the well they're well ahead they have to because there's some point in the future where supply for oil will disappear and and they have no, no real means of filling filling the gap I'm in the new agriculture to talk of not much industry to talk of. So tourism seems seems a sensible thing to do
Unknown:with with all of their, you know, oil, diminishing their power shifts, as well as a result so that that volatility in the Middle East is not going to change and we'll touch on some other country in future podcasts. And one one last thing to mention is quite amusing. So, one of the things that happened while dad was in Jeddah, and one of the Bedouin, the Bedouins that he was teaching and decided that he wanted to marry me, and he'd never met me but he wanted to marry me and How many how many camels? Was he gonna
Unknown:trade for me? Yeah, he was he was offering 12 camels, if he could marry Jane and Jane was very popular because the photographs I had she long blonde hair, and, and so and although you were How old are 30 3013 1313? And yes, and he he, and I would see you notice that your Abba, a yam tears, and I'm serious. So never
Unknown:never did
Unknown:Sage have
Unknown:thank you for loving me enough not to send me Saudi Arabia. I don't think I could have survived in that oppressive regime. Oh my
Unknown:god, you can imagine entering a society like that is so strict, a you know, for free and of course they married quite young and Saudi Arabia. Not sure to 13 I guess, I guess they would do that. So
Unknown:good job I was well behaved. He didn't want to send me to the other side of the world.
Unknown:Absolutely. There's not as if you can call 12 cattle, camels a disposable
Unknown:asset. Yeah. What would you have done with well
Unknown:in Taunton?
Unknown:Well, thank you again. We're gonna go off and make some, some lunch in a minute. And the next podcast, I'm hoping will be really, really interesting. And it is going to take us actually physically back to somewhere that we lived. So my dad spent some time based in New Delhi, in India, in the late 60s, early 70s when I was very young, and my sister Emma was born there, and so we're on the fourth 10th of February 2020. We're heading back to Delhi for a week to re retrace old old stomping grounds. And the High Commission have very kindly said that they'll wells back to have a tour, the High Commission in in New Delhi. So we're going to be recording some podcast from India. When the three of us go back to retrace our steps, thank you for watching. Yeah, me too. Thank you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai